<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 5:41 PM David T. Lewis via Cuis-dev <<a href="mailto:cuis-dev@lists.cuis.st">cuis-dev@lists.cuis.st</a>> wrote: </div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Thierry, I am a casual user of various git tools in Cuis, Squeak and Pharo, and your explanation is very helpful for me to understand some of the tradeoffs. </blockquote><div> </div><div>+1 me too. :) </div><div> </div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> Thanks, Dave On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 12:52:56PM +0200, Thierry Goubier via Cuis-dev wrote: > Hi Philip, > > as someone who has worked a bit on filetree, I'd say there are no > philosophical differences. Just implementation compromises with the way > Smalltalk has to deal with the world outside of the image for storing code. > > For example, Tonel has been introduced to solve issues with filetree: the > fact filetree generates too many files creating performance issues with the > host filesystem implementation (and issues with the poor support of Windows > long paths in the virtual machines), and losing space because the files are > small (and that current storage tech has solved its performance issues with > large files by forcing a large minimum allocation size). Filetree is itself > a compromise to have a different fit with current version management > systems (git, for example). As I said, just implementation compromises(*), > no philosophy behind that. > > If there is a philosophical difference, I would say that there is only one: > declarative or imperative storage format. Traditiional Smalltalk is > imperative... you don't load code, you execute a program. Newer formats > like filetree or tonel, or probably the database-oriented ones (VW, Magma) > are more declarative in nature (but have still imperative parts). > > The picture grows more complex if you consider what are version control > systems. They are in fact databases (even git), so a more natural fit for > Smalltalk would be an object persistency layer used with code objects (VW, > again. Gemstone?). > > To give you an idea of how that looks, for all formats: > > In Smalltalk, you have code as an object graph (class, CompiledMethod > instances, etc...) with an optimisation to store the text (the sources and > changes files). When you save, you iterate over that object graph and > convert it to a file / multiple files. Then you interact with your version > control system to record the files (either automatically or manually). Then > your version control system store your changes into a database, as a set of > objects... > > This also explains why you have those Smalltalk to database for storing > code implementations: avoid that file layer that is extremely annoying. > > Thierry > > (*) For example, the last version of GitFileTree, a git-enabled filetree, > never manipulates any files in Smalltalk. Git does file operations but only > as a kind of user interface layer, to allow users to solve conflicts. > > Le jeu. 29 ao??t 2019 ?? 10:26, Philip Bernhart via Cuis-dev < > <a href="mailto:cuis-dev@lists.cuis.st" target="_blank">cuis-dev@lists.cuis.st</a>> a ??crit : > > > Hi Hernan, > > > > could you find out the philosophical differences regarding > > the "new" package formats like filetree or tonel? > > > > If yes, what are they? I'm curious why thinks are supposed to > > be better the way pharo and visual works (?) went. > > > > > > Thanks for your time, > > Philip > > > > Hernan Wilkinson via Cuis-dev <<a href="mailto:cuis-dev@lists.cuis.st" target="_blank">cuis-dev@lists.cuis.st</a>> writes: > > > > > well well well, even I do admire you and so on, I would not call it a > > > date ???????? > > > (we are starting to have fun!!) > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 4:44 PM Dale Henrichs via Cuis-dev < > > > <a href="mailto:cuis-dev@lists.cuis.st" target="_blank">cuis-dev@lists.cuis.st</a>> wrote: > > > > > >> Hernan, > > >> > > >> Excellent! It's a date then:) > > >> > > >> Dale > > >> On 7/31/19 12:32 PM, Hernan Wilkinson via Cuis-dev wrote: > > -- > > Cuis-dev mailing list > > <a href="mailto:Cuis-dev@lists.cuis.st" target="_blank">Cuis-dev@lists.cuis.st</a> > > <a href="https://lists.cuis.st/mailman/listinfo/cuis-dev" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.cuis.st/mailman/listinfo/cuis-dev</a> > > > -- > Cuis-dev mailing list > <a href="mailto:Cuis-dev@lists.cuis.st" target="_blank">Cuis-dev@lists.cuis.st</a> > <a href="https://lists.cuis.st/mailman/listinfo/cuis-dev" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.cuis.st/mailman/listinfo/cuis-dev</a> -- Cuis-dev mailing list <a href="mailto:Cuis-dev@lists.cuis.st" target="_blank">Cuis-dev@lists.cuis.st</a> <a href="https://lists.cuis.st/mailman/listinfo/cuis-dev" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.cuis.st/mailman/listinfo/cuis-dev</a> </blockquote></div></div>