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<body><div>Hi Juan,</div>
<div style="clear:both"><br /></div>
<div><br /></div>
<div>
<div>On 24-Jun-24 12:22:00 AM, "Juan Vuletich via Cuis-dev" <<a href="mailto:cuis-dev@lists.cuis.st">cuis-dev@lists.cuis.st</a>> wrote:</div></div><div><br /></div>
<div id="x4bdaca16726449a" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><blockquote cite="6678A008.8000504@cuis.st" type="cite" class="cite2">
On 6/23/2024 5:19 AM, Jaromir Matas via Cuis-dev wrote:<br />
<blockquote cite="mid:emaedfc5c1-a7b0-445f-b748-e833728dbdea@88290963.com" type="cite" class="cite">
<div id="x405daaafacbd4dc" style=""><font face="Verdana, Geneva,
 sans-serif
"><span style="font-size: 13.3333px;">
<div id="x405daaafacbd4dc" style=""><span>I'm not sure I
understand the part about "knowledge" though: "Write,
describe, communicate knowledge" - what does it mean
exactly? Is it about Smalltalk as a language? The
language itself is not that different from other
(high-level) languages. A good language certainly is a
great help to formulate things but it's still a
"programming language".
</span><span>I guess there more
to it I didn't get :)
</span></div>
</span></font><font face="Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 13.3333px;">
<div id="x405daaafacbd4dc" style=""><span><br />
</span></div>
<div id="x405daaafacbd4dc" style=""><span>Or is it about the
whole concept including the live "OS-like" environment?
But where the "writing knowledge" fits in?
</span></div>
<div id="x405daaafacbd4dc" style=""><span><br />
</span></div>
</span></font></div>
</blockquote>
<br />
There are only some many things that can be said in an hour.<br />
<br />
There are several links at
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/Cuis-Smalltalk-Dev/blob/master/Documentation/AboutCuis.md#the-philosophy-behind-cuis">https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/Cuis-Smalltalk-Dev/blob/master/Documentation/AboutCuis.md#the-philosophy-behind-cuis</a>
. Have you read them? Please do.</blockquote><div id="x4bdaca16726449a" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">I'm so glad you nudged me to read them. Your Youtube talk and especially your answers allowed me to read the articles with a whole new level of understanding. Especially Alan Kay's "A Personal Computer for Children of
All Ages" has so much to say; here's what caught my attention (re objects vs. processes):</div><div id="x4bdaca16726449a" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">quote</div></div><blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div id="x4bdaca16726449a" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div id="x80081d2c76e44e08a66fc84e6babadb5" style="tab-interval:.5in;word-wrap:break-word"><p class="MsoNormal" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">The following principles should be used in the design of the
Dynabook language.
</p></div></div></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div id="x4bdaca16726449a" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div id="x80081d2c76e44e08a66fc84e6babadb5" style="tab-interval:.5in;word-wrap:break-word"><p class="MsoNormal" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">1. We need a uniform notion as to what objects are, how they
may be referred to, and how they can manipulate other objects.
</p></div></div></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div id="x4bdaca16726449a" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div id="x80081d2c76e44e08a66fc84e6babadb5" style="tab-interval:.5in;word-wrap:break-word"><p class="MsoNormal" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">2. If each object can have its own control path, then there
must be a concise way to coordinate and "control" these paths when
more than one is active.
</p></div></div></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div id="x4bdaca16726449a" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div id="x80081d2c76e44e08a66fc84e6babadb5" style="tab-interval:.5in;word-wrap:break-word"><p class="MsoNormal" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">3. The evaluation of a control path should follow simple
rules which show how objects are passed messages and return results.
</p></div></div></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div id="x4bdaca16726449a" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div id="x80081d2c76e44e08a66fc84e6babadb5" style="tab-interval:.5in;word-wrap:break-word"><p class="MsoNormal" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">4. Every object in a system should be redefinable in terms
of other objects.
</p></div></div></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div id="x4bdaca16726449a" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div id="x80081d2c76e44e08a66fc84e6babadb5" style="tab-interval:.5in;word-wrap:break-word"><p class="MsoNormal" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">The basic idea is to exploit the duality between 'functions
and tables (or processes and memory). English has nouns which refer to
"objects", and verbs which refer to "actors" and
"relators". This is a Newtonian epistemology. Modern physics and
philosophy tend towards the idea that both "objects" and
"actors" are just different aspects of the notion of
<u>process</u>.
A process has
<u>state</u> (a set of relations having only to do with it) which
changes as time (defined as interactions with other objects) passes. Using this
view "data" is a process which changes "slowly",
"function" is a process which changes more rapidly. Each process has
the logical attributes of a complete "micro" computer: they can have
inputs, give back outputs, act as a memory on file system, perform
computations, be interrupted, etc. […] Since multiple control paths are
allowed, many processes can be in various stages of evaluation and debugging. </p></div></div></div></blockquote><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div id="x4bdaca16726449a" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div id="x80081d2c76e44e08a66fc84e6babadb5" style="tab-interval:.5in;word-wrap:break-word">
<p class="MsoNormal" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><o:p xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><o:p xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><o:p xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><o:p xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><o:p xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><o:p xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"></o:p></p></div></div><div id="x4bdaca16726449a" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">unquote</div><div id="x4bdaca16726449a" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br /></div><div id="x4bdaca16726449a" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Do I understand correctly that Alan Kay suggests in (2) that each object should have its own control path (i.e. a thread, aka a process in Smalltalk vocabulary)? Is he somehow placing an equal sign between objects and actors (like e.g. Squeak Actors by Tony Garnock-Jones, <a href="https://tonyg.github.io/squeak-actors/" style="font-size: 12pt;">https://tonyg.github.io/squeak-actors/</a>) where actors are implemented as processes. Would that implicate that the idea was that objects should do their jobs in parallel, each in its own process (control path), i.e. asynchronously, rather than synchronously and on a single control path unless explicitely forked? </div><div id="x4bdaca16726449a" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br /></div><div id="x4bdaca16726449a" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">This part really confused me; it's quite a difference whether you do:</div><div id="x4bdaca16726449a" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> car driveTo: aPlace</div><div id="x4bdaca16726449a" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">and assume the car just does it (asynchronously) until it arrives there while the current control path continues or:</div><div id="x4bdaca16726449a" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"> [car driveTo: aPlace] fork</div><div id="x4bdaca16726449a" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">where you explicitly give the car it's own control path.</div><div id="x4bdaca16726449a" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br /></div><div id="x4bdaca16726449a" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Or have I misunderstood it completely? :)))</div><br /><blockquote cite="6678A008.8000504@cuis.st" type="cite" class="cite2"><br />
<br />
And, as I said at the start of the podcast, Smalltalk is an
attitude. If you are a programmer, wanting to solve some problem
with code, then Smalltalk is a good programming language. But if you
want to explore a field, understand, and document your journey of
discovery and invention, you could use pencil and paper. Or perhaps
Jupyter Notebooks. Or Smalltalk. If you use Smalltalk this way, it
is way more than a programming system. </blockquote><div id="x4bdaca16726449a" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Yup, that's what I use Smalltalk for - exploring, seeking active understanding. I have a problem with documenting though. You know I've tried to write as thorough comments as possible documenting intentions, explaining sticking points etc. (even if just to help myself understand it again a few months/weeks later) but IMHO it's still woefully insufficient - in addition to the more or less terse in-method comments I'd like to be able to add somewhere really close (even in-image Help files are too far away) more detailed descriptions, reasons for tradoffs, motivations, future plans, <span>examples, etc. - but in a way that wouldn't clutter the environment.</span></div><div id="x4bdaca16726449a" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span><br /></span></div><div id="x4bdaca16726449a" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span>Now that you mentioned Jupyter Notebooks - I was wondering why Cuis Text Editor won't allow running code fragments - like the Workspace; whether it could serve as a richer documentation medium and "active" - able to run the examples just like Jupyter Notebooks. Or maybe I just missed something that already works that way... </span></div><div id="x4bdaca16726449a" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span><br /></span></div><div id="x4bdaca16726449a" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">A note about exploration: I like to use Smalltalk to explore exceptions and e.g. tried to use them just as another workflow control mechanism. Recently, however, I've attended an OOP lecture where this type of use of exceptions was strongly discouraged. But this has nothing to do with OOP - maybe in Python or Java is doesn't make much sense due to their particular implementation but in Smalltalk - why not? :) And besides that Smalltalk is the only language I'm aware of that implements exceptions that can resume the computation - all other mainstream ones can only make return.</div><br /><blockquote cite="6678A008.8000504@cuis.st" type="cite" class="cite2"><br />
<br />
<blockquote cite="mid:emaedfc5c1-a7b0-445f-b748-e833728dbdea@88290963.com" type="cite" class="cite">
<div id="x405daaafacbd4dc" style=""><font face="Verdana, Geneva,
 sans-serif
"><span style="font-size: 13.3333px;">
<div id="x405daaafacbd4dc" style="">Other question -
Smalltalk was originally supposed to be the universal
environment above the hardware level. Everything below the
VM is the hardware (a machine language), everything above
the VM is Smalltalk (the UI, apps...). Even the VM is
written in a simplified Smalltalk (Slang); what was
supposed to be the role of C - to stay as an intermediary
between the Smalltalk level and the hardware or was (is?)
it supposed to be eliminated somehow eventually?
</div>
</span></font></div>
</blockquote>
<br />
In my opinion, "Design Principles Behind Smalltalk" is the canon
here. C had no role originally, only much later. And its only role
is to be a useful implementation language for VMs. Nothing special.
<br />
<br />
<blockquote cite="mid:emaedfc5c1-a7b0-445f-b748-e833728dbdea@88290963.com" type="cite" class="cite">
<div id="x405daaafacbd4dc" style=""><font face="Verdana, Geneva,
 sans-serif
"><span style="font-size: 13.3333px;">
<div id="x405daaafacbd4dc" style=""><br />
</div>
<div id="x405daaafacbd4dc" style="">And one more note about
"easy to use, intuitive, for children" - this refers to
the DynaBook concept, right? Smalltalk as a language is a
lot of things but certainly not those things :) Simple
syntax doesn't mean simplicity but it thank god it saves
me from remembering tons of syntactic rules :) Anyway,
many thanks for explaining the DynaBook concept!
</div>
<div id="x405daaafacbd4dc" style=""><br />
</div>
<div id="x405daaafacbd4dc" style="">Thanks again for the
great talk!
</div>
<div id="x405daaafacbd4dc" style="">best,</div>
<div id="x405daaafacbd4dc" style="">Jaromir</div>
</span></font></div>
</blockquote>
<br />
Yes. Smalltalk was started as the "software half" of a Dynabook.
You'd read about the history, starting from Smalltalk-72, its
objectives and the experiences done by the Parc Learning Research
Group. And what happened after that, how they did Smalltalk-80, and
to what extent focus was changed. Same with the developments
described in the Green Book, and later commercial Smalltalks. How /
why focus changed? What happened with "for children"? Out of where
did Etoys, Scratch, and the whole world of tile programming came to
be?
<br />
<br />
I think it is best to read what the people who did all this wrote.
For instance, start with
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/Cuis-Smalltalk-Dev/blob/master/Documentation/Philosophical/OnMakingDynabooksReal.md" style="">https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/Cuis-Smalltalk-Dev/blob/master/Documentation/Philosophical/OnMakingDynabooksReal.md</a>
. Yes, the stuff in the Cuis repo is there for a reason.</blockquote><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Alan Kay writes: </div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">"<span>we'll know if we have the first Dynabook if we can make the end-user experience one of "reading and writing" about "powerful ideas" in a dynamic form, and to do this in such a way that large percentages of the bell-curve can learn how to do this."</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span><br /></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span>Q: Would an AI count as a UI? I'm thinking supplying an AI intermediary between the user and the system (replacing or rather complementing a keyboard) would make the system accessible to a wider range of users. It would help using the system, facilitate the user's learning, you name it. I hope this fantasy doesn't contradict somehow the Dynabook's idea :)</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br /></div>Thanks again,</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Jaromir</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br /><blockquote cite="6678A008.8000504@cuis.st" type="cite" class="cite2"><br />
<br />
Cheers,<br />
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Juan Vuletich
cuis.st
github.com/jvuletich
researchgate.net/profile/Juan-Vuletich
independent.academia.edu/JuanVuletich
patents.justia.com/inventor/juan-manuel-vuletich
linkedin.com/in/juan-vuletich-75611b3
twitter.com/JuanVuletich
</pre>
</blockquote></div>
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