[Cuis-dev] Package dependencies satisfaction (was Re: Converting Tonel packages)

Fri Aug 30 05:55:41 PDT 2019

My only real experience comes from supporting OSProcess in Cuis. In
this case there have been no package dependency issues so far, but
if I look forward to adding CommandShell and RemoteTask then I guess
I will need to handle some dependency issues.

In Cuis, the approach is always to keep things simple and do not
put any unnecessary cruft into the image, so tools such as Metacello
would seem out of place. My guess is that they just will not be
necessary for any problems that I am likely to encounter.

if there was a need to explictly specify package versions I would
expect that the versions would simply be the existing git commits
(tools external to the image), and I would not expect to add any
additional tools within the image.

I guess I should try a few things and find out :-)

Dave

On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 01:39:22PM +0200, Thierry Goubier via Cuis-dev wrote:
> Hi Chris, David,
> 
> thanks guys.
> 
> Out of topic, but related. Do package dependencies satisfaction a
> significant issue in development and deployment, and if yes, how that
> could be addressed?
> 
> I'm familiar with Metacello/Gofer up to the version ordering
> implementation details and the constraints it brings on the filetree
> implementation; I've seen recently in the golang space this
> (https://blog.golang.org/versioning-proposal) and all the Russ Cox
> blog posts on the subject. How does Cuis stands about that?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Thierry
> 
> Le ven. 30 ao??t 2019 ?? 07:06, Chris Muller via Cuis-dev
> <cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st> a ??crit :
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 5:41 PM David T. Lewis via Cuis-dev <cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st> wrote:
> >>
> >> Thierry,
> >>
> >> I am a casual user of various git tools in Cuis, Squeak and Pharo,
> >> and your explanation is very helpful for me to understand some of
> >> the tradeoffs.
> >
> >
> > +1 me too.    :)
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Dave
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 12:52:56PM +0200, Thierry Goubier via Cuis-dev wrote:
> >> > Hi Philip,
> >> >
> >> > as someone who has worked a bit on filetree, I'd say there are no
> >> > philosophical differences. Just implementation compromises with the way
> >> > Smalltalk has to deal with the world outside of the image for storing code.
> >> >
> >> > For example, Tonel has been introduced to solve issues with filetree: the
> >> > fact filetree generates too many files creating performance issues with the
> >> > host filesystem implementation (and issues with the poor support of Windows
> >> > long paths in the virtual machines), and losing space because the files are
> >> > small (and that current storage tech has solved its performance issues with
> >> > large files by forcing a large minimum allocation size). Filetree is itself
> >> > a compromise to have a different fit with current version management
> >> > systems (git, for example). As I said, just implementation compromises(*),
> >> > no philosophy behind that.
> >> >
> >> > If there is a philosophical difference, I would say that there is only one:
> >> > declarative or imperative storage format. Traditiional Smalltalk is
> >> > imperative... you don't load code, you execute a program. Newer formats
> >> > like filetree or tonel, or probably the database-oriented ones (VW, Magma)
> >> > are more declarative in nature (but have still imperative parts).
> >> >
> >> > The picture grows more complex if you consider what are version control
> >> > systems. They are in fact databases (even git), so a more natural fit for
> >> > Smalltalk would be an object persistency layer used with code objects (VW,
> >> > again. Gemstone?).
> >> >
> >> > To give you an idea of how that looks, for all formats:
> >> >
> >> > In Smalltalk, you have code as an object graph (class, CompiledMethod
> >> > instances, etc...) with an optimisation to store the text (the sources and
> >> > changes files). When you save, you iterate over that object graph and
> >> > convert it to a file / multiple files. Then you interact with your version
> >> > control system to record the files (either automatically or manually). Then
> >> > your version control system store your changes into a database, as a set of
> >> > objects...
> >> >
> >> > This also explains why you have those Smalltalk to database for storing
> >> > code implementations: avoid that file layer that is extremely annoying.
> >> >
> >> > Thierry
> >> >
> >> > (*) For example, the last version of GitFileTree, a git-enabled filetree,
> >> > never manipulates any files in Smalltalk. Git does file operations but only
> >> > as a kind of user interface layer, to allow users to solve conflicts.
> >> >
> >> > Le jeu. 29 ao??t 2019 ?? 10:26, Philip Bernhart via Cuis-dev <
> >> > cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st> a ??crit :
> >> >
> >> > > Hi Hernan,
> >> > >
> >> > > could you find out the philosophical differences regarding
> >> > > the "new" package formats like filetree or tonel?
> >> > >
> >> > > If yes, what are they? I'm curious why thinks are supposed to
> >> > > be better the way pharo and visual works (?) went.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Thanks for your time,
> >> > > Philip
> >> > >
> >> > > Hernan Wilkinson via Cuis-dev <cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st> writes:
> >> > >
> >> > > > well well well, even I do admire you and so on, I would not call it a
> >> > > > date ????????
> >> > > > (we are starting to have fun!!)
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 4:44 PM Dale Henrichs via Cuis-dev <
> >> > > > cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st> wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > >> Hernan,
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Excellent! It's a date then:)
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Dale
> >> > > >> On 7/31/19 12:32 PM, Hernan Wilkinson via Cuis-dev wrote:
> >> > > --
> >> > > Cuis-dev mailing list
> >> > > Cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st
> >> > > https://lists.cuis.st/mailman/listinfo/cuis-dev
> >> > >
> >>
> >> > --
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> >>
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