[Cuis-dev] Hello, new Cuis smalltalk user here!
Bruce O'Neel
bruce.oneel at pckswarms.ch
Mon Jul 19 04:37:56 PDT 2021
Hi,
Just out of interest the Cog interpreter rather than the stack one?
The Cog one is a JIT and much faster.
squeak -version
will tell you this. Send it to me if it is unclear.
cheers
bruce
On 2021-07-19T13:32:20.000+02:00, Joseph Turco
<jturk90 at protonmail.com> wrote:
> Yeah see I think that's my problem. Its a RPI zero w. 512mb ram and
> a single core 1ghz processor. I guess it needs a RPI 3b+ and faster.
> Oh well I guess its smalltalk-80 for now.
>
> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> On Jul 19, 2021, 7:29 AM, Bruce O'Neel < bruce.oneel at pckswarms.ch>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I run Squeak, so same VM but not the same Image, on both a PI3B+
>> and a PI400. Both don't give the impression of being laggy,
>> but.... I am running them using X11 remote displays. So
>> therefore my "boy this is slow" reaction will be absorbed by
>> "network seems slow."
>>
>> I know others who use Squeak on PI4s and seem happy.
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> bruce
>>
>> On 2021-07-19T13:23:11.000+02:00, Joseph Turco
>> <jturk90 at protonmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Its funny you bring up arm Bruce,
>>>
>>> I tried to get Cuis to run on my raspberry pi zero W as my PC is
>>> having some major issues (its over 10 years old) and I wasn't
>>> surprised, but it was very slow and laggy. I'm assuming the CPU
>>> isn't enough for it. You have ideas on how I could optimize it?
>>> I may end up having to use the c++ original smalltalk-80
>>> baremetal that came out recently...
>>>
>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> On Jul 19, 2021, 7:08 AM, Bruce O'Neel <
>>> bruce.oneel at pckswarms.ch> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In terms of 64 bit ARM....
>>>>
>>>> RPF (Raspberry PI Foundation) recently donated optimized
>>>> bitblt for ARM64 [1] like they had done in the past for
>>>> ARM32. This is not in a current VM for long and not very
>>>> interesting reasons but soonish they will be.
>>>>
>>>> If I remember I'll send a note around when ARM64 should speed
>>>> up on the graphics side.
>>>>
>>>> cheers
>>>>
>>>> bruce
>>>>
>>>> [1]. - Squeak - Dev - BitBlt performance work for ARM32 &
>>>> 64
>>>> [http://forum.world.st/BitBlt-performance-work-for-ARM32-amp-64-td5128015.html]
>>>>
>>>> On 2021-07-17T10:20:55.000+02:00, Gerald Klix via Cuis-dev
>>>> <cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Joseph,
>>>>>
>>>>> see below.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/17/21 12:23 AM, Joseph Turco via Cuis-dev wrote:
>>>>>> Ah OK got it. For the record I wasn't downplaying or
>>>>>> hating Cuis. I really enjoy using it. Speaking of ARM, it
>>>>>> would be interesting to see how it runs on a raspberry pi4
>>>>>> 4 or 8GB model.
>>>>> It's ok as long you don't use to big a display size.
>>>>> 1920x1080 works well, even with the VectorGrahics package
>>>>> (as long you use the plugin).
>>>>>
>>>>> With one 3840x2160 monitor (or TV) you can watch it drawing
>>>>> windows on X11. The Linux frame-buffer driver (thanks again
>>>>> Ken)
>>>>> seems to be a bit faster. AFIK X11 uses the frame-buffer on
>>>>> Raspbian,
>>>>> therefore it's no surprise that another layer of indirection
>>>>> just makes it slower.
>>>>> It gives you this nice vintage feeling
>>>>> described here:
>>>>> www.righto.com/2017/10/the-...
>>>>> [https://www.righto.com/2017/10/the-xerox-alto-smalltalk-and-rewriting.html]
>>>>>
>>>>> 'the team described performance as between "majestic" and
>>>>> "glacial"'
>>>>>
>>>>> I also tried two 3840x2160 in portrait mode.
>>>>> Graphics performance is somewhere between glacial
>>>>> and tectonic, but -- hey -- it works.
>>>>>
>>>>> All of this was done with 64-bit kernel
>>>>> and a 32bit user-space.
>>>>>
>>>>> I presume all if this would be much faster,
>>>>> if the VM used OpenVG
>>>>> (www.khronos.org/files/openv...
>>>>> [http://www.khronos.org/files/openvg-quick-reference-card.pdf])
>>>>>
>>>>> Just my 0.01€,
>>>>>
>>>>> Gerald
>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2021, 2:52 PM, Phil B via Cuis-dev wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Joseph,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Smalltalk in general will feel a bit laggy vs most other
>>>>>>> environments just given the nature of how the VM works
>>>>>>> and how the image processes input. (i.e. it's very
>>>>>>> indirect) Cuis input handling does not feel as fluid to
>>>>>>> me as a Squeak image. This is one area I suspect Squeak
>>>>>>> has put a bit more effort into than we have to date. I
>>>>>>> feel it even on relatively snappy multi-GHz, multi-core
>>>>>>> machines and it does start to get painful on single-core
>>>>>>> 1GHz ARM boards if you do much beyond just typing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2021 at 2:39 PM Joseph Turco via
>>>>>>> Cuis-dev <cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am running it on a Core 2 duo vpro (64 bit) with 2GB
>>>>>>>> of ram. I am planning on upgrading the ram and
>>>>>>>> swapping out the HDD with a SSD or another mechanical
>>>>>>>> drive. I'm using the squeak VM that is listed in the
>>>>>>>> install instructions, and I've also used the one
>>>>>>>> that's built into the "Cuis university" package. I
>>>>>>>> moved the wireless keyboard receiver to the front of
>>>>>>>> my computer and it helped. But I get slight hiccups
>>>>>>>> with input very rarely now. I never got it in official
>>>>>>>> squeak packages (v5.3). It might be my computer as its
>>>>>>>> aged as you can tell from what processor family I am
>>>>>>>> quoting.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2021, 12:35 PM, Juan Vuletich <
>>>>>>>> juan at jvuletich.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cuis should run reasonably well on anything with at
>>>>>>>>> least 1GHz and 2GB. What CPU are you using ? How
>>>>>>>>> much RAM? What VM? Is that a 32bit or 64bit OS? Do
>>>>>>>>> you feel keyboard input lag on Squeak too? Other
>>>>>>>>> apps? Do you see mouse lag too?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 7/15/2021 11:00 AM, Joseph Turco via Cuis-dev
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Juan I had another question for you or anyone
>>>>>>>>>> really. On my desktop (she's a bit old) I'm
>>>>>>>>>> getting some input lag. The distro I'm using is
>>>>>>>>>> AntiX, and doesn't use system.d. is this a problem
>>>>>>>>>> for Cuis?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 14, 2021, 2:34 PM, Juan Vuletich via
>>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev < cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Joseph,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/14/2021 3:24 PM, Joseph Turco via Cuis-dev
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I hope I am not bothering anyone with this
>>>>>>>>>>>> question(s), I am a new
>>>>>>>>>>>> smalltalker and programmer. I decided to use
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis because its more in
>>>>>>>>>>>> line with smalltalk-80, where its easier to
>>>>>>>>>>>> find beginner (beginner in
>>>>>>>>>>>> the programming sense) books.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Welcome to Smalltalk and Cuis!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am currently reading 'smalltalk, objects,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and design, by Chamond
>>>>>>>>>>>> Liu. Is this a good book? I know the 'blue
>>>>>>>>>>>> book' exists, but it
>>>>>>>>>>>> assumes you can already program.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it is a very good book. But also keep in
>>>>>>>>>>> mind we wrote a book
>>>>>>>>>>> specifically for newcomers to Cuis!
>>>>>>>>>>> github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/T...
>>>>>>>>>>> [https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/TheCuisBook]
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There is also a good amount of documentation in
>>>>>>>>>>> the Documentation folder
>>>>>>>>>>> in Cuis, in github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/L...
>>>>>>>>>>> [https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/Learning-Cuis]
>>>>>>>>>>> and in
>>>>>>>>>>> github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/L...
>>>>>>>>>>> [https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/Learning-Cuis]
>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> My second question was the resolution of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> VM. I noticed VS squeak
>>>>>>>>>>>> the windows were much smaller (higher
>>>>>>>>>>>> resolution screen layout) than
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis, this really isn't a problem, more so,
>>>>>>>>>>>> did I not configure
>>>>>>>>>>>> something correctly? Please excuse my
>>>>>>>>>>>> ignorance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> - Joseph
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Both in Squeak and in Cuis you can evaluate
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Display extent
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> to get the size of the Display as seen by
>>>>>>>>>>> Smalltalk. It is best if this
>>>>>>>>>>> matches the physical screen resolution (although
>>>>>>>>>>> that is not the default
>>>>>>>>>>> on MacBooks). In any case, the difference you
>>>>>>>>>>> see is because in Cuis the
>>>>>>>>>>> default fonts are larger than Squeak's. This is
>>>>>>>>>>> configurable in Cuis.
>>>>>>>>>>> Play a bit with the World menu.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Juan Vuletich
>>>>>>>>>>> www.cuis-smalltalk.org
>>>>>>>>>>> [http://www.cuis-smalltalk.org]
>>>>>>>>>>> github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/C...
>>>>>>>>>>> [https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/Cuis-Smalltalk-Dev]
>>>>>>>>>>> github.com/jvuletich
>>>>>>>>>>> [https://github.com/jvuletich]
>>>>>>>>>>> www.linkedin.com/in/juan-vu...
>>>>>>>>>>> [https://www.linkedin.com/in/juan-vuletich-75611b3]
>>>>>>>>>>> @JuanVuletich
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st
>>>>>>>>>>> lists.cuis.st/mailman/listi...
>>>>>>>>>>> [https://lists.cuis.st/mailman/listinfo/cuis-dev]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Juan Vuletich
>>>>>>>>> www.cuis-smalltalk.org
>>>>>>>>> [http://www.cuis-smalltalk.org]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/C...
>>>>>>>>> [https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/Cuis-Smalltalk-Dev]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> github.com/jvuletich [https://github.com/jvuletich]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> www.linkedin.com/in/juan-vu...
>>>>>>>>> [https://www.linkedin.com/in/juan-vuletich-75611b3]
>>>>>>>>> @JuanVuletich
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st
>>>>>>>>> lists.cuis.st/mailman/listi...
>>>>>>>>> [https://lists.cuis.st/mailman/listinfo/cuis-dev]
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cuis-dev mailing list
>>>>> Cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st
>>>>> lists.cuis.st/mailman/listi...
>>>>> [https://lists.cuis.st/mailman/listinfo/cuis-dev]
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