[Cuis-dev] Hello, new Cuis smalltalk user here!
Bruce O'Neel
bruce.oneel at pckswarms.ch
Mon Jul 19 11:37:36 PDT 2021
Hi,
Which VM exactly did you download?
cheers
bruce
On 2021-07-19T19:59:27.000+02:00, Joseph Turco
<jturk90 at protonmail.com> wrote:
> Hey Bruce. Sorry to bother you.
>
> I decided to try getting squeak cog spur to load. But im getting a
> segmentation fault. I've tried multiple versions of the VM and no
> luck. Run into this issue?
>
> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> On Jul 19, 2021, 7:37 AM, Bruce O'Neel via Cuis-dev <
> cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Just out of interest the Cog interpreter rather than the stack
>> one? The Cog one is a JIT and much faster.
>>
>> squeak -version
>>
>> will tell you this. Send it to me if it is unclear.
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> bruce
>>
>> On 2021-07-19T13:32:20.000+02:00, Joseph Turco
>> <jturk90 at protonmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah see I think that's my problem. Its a RPI zero w. 512mb ram
>>> and a single core 1ghz processor. I guess it needs a RPI 3b+ and
>>> faster. Oh well I guess its smalltalk-80 for now.
>>>
>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> On Jul 19, 2021, 7:29 AM, Bruce O'Neel <
>>> bruce.oneel at pckswarms.ch> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I run Squeak, so same VM but not the same Image, on both a
>>>> PI3B+ and a PI400. Both don't give the impression of being
>>>> laggy, but.... I am running them using X11 remote
>>>> displays. So therefore my "boy this is slow" reaction will
>>>> be absorbed by "network seems slow."
>>>>
>>>> I know others who use Squeak on PI4s and seem happy.
>>>>
>>>> cheers
>>>>
>>>> bruce
>>>>
>>>> On 2021-07-19T13:23:11.000+02:00, Joseph Turco
>>>> <jturk90 at protonmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Its funny you bring up arm Bruce,
>>>>>
>>>>> I tried to get Cuis to run on my raspberry pi zero W as my
>>>>> PC is having some major issues (its over 10 years old) and I
>>>>> wasn't surprised, but it was very slow and laggy. I'm
>>>>> assuming the CPU isn't enough for it. You have ideas on how
>>>>> I could optimize it? I may end up having to use the c++
>>>>> original smalltalk-80 baremetal that came out recently...
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>>>
>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>> On Jul 19, 2021, 7:08 AM, Bruce O'Neel <
>>>>> bruce.oneel at pckswarms.ch> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In terms of 64 bit ARM....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> RPF (Raspberry PI Foundation) recently donated optimized
>>>>>> bitblt for ARM64 [1] like they had done in the past for
>>>>>> ARM32. This is not in a current VM for long and not very
>>>>>> interesting reasons but soonish they will be.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I remember I'll send a note around when ARM64 should
>>>>>> speed up on the graphics side.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> cheers
>>>>>>
>>>>>> bruce
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1]. - Squeak - Dev - BitBlt performance work for ARM32
>>>>>> & 64
>>>>>> [http://forum.world.st/BitBlt-performance-work-for-ARM32-amp-64-td5128015.html]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2021-07-17T10:20:55.000+02:00, Gerald Klix via Cuis-dev
>>>>>> <cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Joseph,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> see below.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 7/17/21 12:23 AM, Joseph Turco via Cuis-dev wrote:
>>>>>>>> Ah OK got it. For the record I wasn't downplaying or
>>>>>>>> hating Cuis. I really enjoy using it. Speaking of ARM,
>>>>>>>> it would be interesting to see how it runs on a
>>>>>>>> raspberry pi4 4 or 8GB model.
>>>>>>> It's ok as long you don't use to big a display size.
>>>>>>> 1920x1080 works well, even with the VectorGrahics
>>>>>>> package
>>>>>>> (as long you use the plugin).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With one 3840x2160 monitor (or TV) you can watch it
>>>>>>> drawing
>>>>>>> windows on X11. The Linux frame-buffer driver (thanks
>>>>>>> again Ken)
>>>>>>> seems to be a bit faster. AFIK X11 uses the frame-buffer
>>>>>>> on Raspbian,
>>>>>>> therefore it's no surprise that another layer of
>>>>>>> indirection
>>>>>>> just makes it slower.
>>>>>>> It gives you this nice vintage feeling
>>>>>>> described here:
>>>>>>> www.righto.com/2017/10/the-...
>>>>>>> [https://www.righto.com/2017/10/the-xerox-alto-smalltalk-and-rewriting.html]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 'the team described performance as between "majestic"
>>>>>>> and "glacial"'
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I also tried two 3840x2160 in portrait mode.
>>>>>>> Graphics performance is somewhere between glacial
>>>>>>> and tectonic, but -- hey -- it works.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All of this was done with 64-bit kernel
>>>>>>> and a 32bit user-space.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I presume all if this would be much faster,
>>>>>>> if the VM used OpenVG
>>>>>>> (www.khronos.org/files/openv...
>>>>>>> [http://www.khronos.org/files/openvg-quick-reference-card.pdf])
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just my 0.01€,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gerald
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2021, 2:52 PM, Phil B via Cuis-dev wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Joseph,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Smalltalk in general will feel a bit laggy vs most
>>>>>>>>> other environments just given the nature of how the
>>>>>>>>> VM works and how the image processes input. (i.e.
>>>>>>>>> it's very indirect) Cuis input handling does not
>>>>>>>>> feel as fluid to me as a Squeak image. This is one
>>>>>>>>> area I suspect Squeak has put a bit more effort into
>>>>>>>>> than we have to date. I feel it even on relatively
>>>>>>>>> snappy multi-GHz, multi-core machines and it does
>>>>>>>>> start to get painful on single-core 1GHz ARM boards
>>>>>>>>> if you do much beyond just typing.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2021 at 2:39 PM Joseph Turco via
>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev <cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am running it on a Core 2 duo vpro (64 bit) with
>>>>>>>>>> 2GB of ram. I am planning on upgrading the ram and
>>>>>>>>>> swapping out the HDD with a SSD or another
>>>>>>>>>> mechanical drive. I'm using the squeak VM that is
>>>>>>>>>> listed in the install instructions, and I've also
>>>>>>>>>> used the one that's built into the "Cuis
>>>>>>>>>> university" package. I moved the wireless keyboard
>>>>>>>>>> receiver to the front of my computer and it
>>>>>>>>>> helped. But I get slight hiccups with input very
>>>>>>>>>> rarely now. I never got it in official squeak
>>>>>>>>>> packages (v5.3). It might be my computer as its
>>>>>>>>>> aged as you can tell from what processor family I
>>>>>>>>>> am quoting.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2021, 12:35 PM, Juan Vuletich <
>>>>>>>>>> juan at jvuletich.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis should run reasonably well on anything with
>>>>>>>>>>> at least 1GHz and 2GB. What CPU are you using ?
>>>>>>>>>>> How much RAM? What VM? Is that a 32bit or 64bit
>>>>>>>>>>> OS? Do you feel keyboard input lag on Squeak
>>>>>>>>>>> too? Other apps? Do you see mouse lag too?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/15/2021 11:00 AM, Joseph Turco via Cuis-dev
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Juan I had another question for you or anyone
>>>>>>>>>>>> really. On my desktop (she's a bit old) I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>> getting some input lag. The distro I'm using
>>>>>>>>>>>> is AntiX, and doesn't use system.d. is this a
>>>>>>>>>>>> problem for Cuis?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 14, 2021, 2:34 PM, Juan Vuletich via
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev < cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Joseph,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/14/2021 3:24 PM, Joseph Turco via
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hope I am not bothering anyone with this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question(s), I am a new
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> smalltalker and programmer. I decided to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use Cuis because its more in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> line with smalltalk-80, where its easier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to find beginner (beginner in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the programming sense) books.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Welcome to Smalltalk and Cuis!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am currently reading 'smalltalk,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> objects, and design, by Chamond
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Liu. Is this a good book? I know the 'blue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> book' exists, but it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assumes you can already program.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it is a very good book. But also keep
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in mind we wrote a book
>>>>>>>>>>>>> specifically for newcomers to Cuis!
>>>>>>>>>>>>> github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/T...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/TheCuisBook]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is also a good amount of documentation
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the Documentation folder
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in Cuis, in github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/L...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/Learning-Cuis]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/L...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/Learning-Cuis]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My second question was the resolution of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the VM. I noticed VS squeak
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the windows were much smaller (higher
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> resolution screen layout) than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis, this really isn't a problem, more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so, did I not configure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something correctly? Please excuse my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ignorance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Joseph
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Both in Squeak and in Cuis you can evaluate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Display extent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get the size of the Display as seen by
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Smalltalk. It is best if this
>>>>>>>>>>>>> matches the physical screen resolution
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (although that is not the default
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on MacBooks). In any case, the difference
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you see is because in Cuis the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> default fonts are larger than Squeak's. This
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is configurable in Cuis.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Play a bit with the World menu.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Juan Vuletich
>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.cuis-smalltalk.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [http://www.cuis-smalltalk.org]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/C...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/Cuis-Smalltalk-Dev]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> github.com/jvuletich
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [https://github.com/jvuletich]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.linkedin.com/in/juan-vu...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [https://www.linkedin.com/in/juan-vuletich-75611b3]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> @JuanVuletich
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st
>>>>>>>>>>>>> lists.cuis.st/mailman/listi...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [https://lists.cuis.st/mailman/listinfo/cuis-dev]
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Juan Vuletich
>>>>>>>>>>> www.cuis-smalltalk.org
>>>>>>>>>>> [http://www.cuis-smalltalk.org]
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/C...
>>>>>>>>>>> [https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/Cuis-Smalltalk-Dev]
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> github.com/jvuletich
>>>>>>>>>>> [https://github.com/jvuletich]
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> www.linkedin.com/in/juan-vu...
>>>>>>>>>>> [https://www.linkedin.com/in/juan-vuletich-75611b3]
>>>>>>>>>>> @JuanVuletich
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st
>>>>>>>>>>> lists.cuis.st/mailman/listi...
>>>>>>>>>>> [https://lists.cuis.st/mailman/listinfo/cuis-dev]
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Cuis-dev mailing list
>>>>>>> Cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st
>>>>>>> lists.cuis.st/mailman/listi...
>>>>>>> [https://lists.cuis.st/mailman/listinfo/cuis-dev]
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