[Cuis-dev] Hello, new Cuis smalltalk user here!
Bruce O'Neel
bruce.oneel at pckswarms.ch
Mon Jul 19 12:14:23 PDT 2021
Yep, that one is broken.
You are on a Raspberry PI, right? It turns out that the PI
foundation ships an up to date Squeak VM for ARM32.
$ sudo apt search squeak-vm
Sorting... Done
Full Text Search... Done
squeak-vm/stable,now 1:4.10.2.2614-8 armhf [installed,automatic]
virtual machine for Smalltalk
On my install it was automatically installed.
which squeak
/usr/bin/squeak
That is a working one.
If that doesn't work for you I can build one and put it somewhere.
cheers
bruce
On 2021-07-19T21:03:31.000+02:00, Joseph Turco
<jturk90 at protonmail.com> wrote:
> https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm/releases/download/202003021730/squeak.cog.spur_linux32ARMv6_202003021730.tar.gz
>
> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> On Jul 19, 2021, 2:37 PM, Bruce O'Neel < bruce.oneel at pckswarms.ch>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Which VM exactly did you download?
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> bruce
>>
>> On 2021-07-19T19:59:27.000+02:00, Joseph Turco
>> <jturk90 at protonmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hey Bruce. Sorry to bother you.
>>>
>>> I decided to try getting squeak cog spur to load. But im getting
>>> a segmentation fault. I've tried multiple versions of the VM and
>>> no luck. Run into this issue?
>>>
>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> On Jul 19, 2021, 7:37 AM, Bruce O'Neel via Cuis-dev <
>>> cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Just out of interest the Cog interpreter rather than the stack
>>>> one? The Cog one is a JIT and much faster.
>>>>
>>>> squeak -version
>>>>
>>>> will tell you this. Send it to me if it is unclear.
>>>>
>>>> cheers
>>>>
>>>> bruce
>>>>
>>>> On 2021-07-19T13:32:20.000+02:00, Joseph Turco
>>>> <jturk90 at protonmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yeah see I think that's my problem. Its a RPI zero w. 512mb
>>>>> ram and a single core 1ghz processor. I guess it needs a RPI
>>>>> 3b+ and faster. Oh well I guess its smalltalk-80 for now.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>>>
>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>> On Jul 19, 2021, 7:29 AM, Bruce O'Neel <
>>>>> bruce.oneel at pckswarms.ch> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I run Squeak, so same VM but not the same Image, on both a
>>>>>> PI3B+ and a PI400. Both don't give the impression of
>>>>>> being laggy, but.... I am running them using X11 remote
>>>>>> displays. So therefore my "boy this is slow" reaction
>>>>>> will be absorbed by "network seems slow."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know others who use Squeak on PI4s and seem happy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> cheers
>>>>>>
>>>>>> bruce
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2021-07-19T13:23:11.000+02:00, Joseph Turco
>>>>>> <jturk90 at protonmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Its funny you bring up arm Bruce,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I tried to get Cuis to run on my raspberry pi zero W as
>>>>>>> my PC is having some major issues (its over 10 years
>>>>>>> old) and I wasn't surprised, but it was very slow and
>>>>>>> laggy. I'm assuming the CPU isn't enough for it. You
>>>>>>> have ideas on how I could optimize it? I may end up
>>>>>>> having to use the c++ original smalltalk-80 baremetal
>>>>>>> that came out recently...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>> On Jul 19, 2021, 7:08 AM, Bruce O'Neel <
>>>>>>> bruce.oneel at pckswarms.ch> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In terms of 64 bit ARM....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> RPF (Raspberry PI Foundation) recently donated
>>>>>>>> optimized bitblt for ARM64 [1] like they had done in
>>>>>>>> the past for ARM32. This is not in a current VM for
>>>>>>>> long and not very interesting reasons but soonish they
>>>>>>>> will be.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If I remember I'll send a note around when ARM64
>>>>>>>> should speed up on the graphics side.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> cheers
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> bruce
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [1]. - Squeak - Dev - BitBlt performance work for
>>>>>>>> ARM32 & 64
>>>>>>>> [http://forum.world.st/BitBlt-performance-work-for-ARM32-amp-64-td5128015.html]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2021-07-17T10:20:55.000+02:00, Gerald Klix via
>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev <cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Joseph,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> see below.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 7/17/21 12:23 AM, Joseph Turco via Cuis-dev wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Ah OK got it. For the record I wasn't downplaying
>>>>>>>>>> or hating Cuis. I really enjoy using it. Speaking
>>>>>>>>>> of ARM, it would be interesting to see how it runs
>>>>>>>>>> on a raspberry pi4 4 or 8GB model.
>>>>>>>>> It's ok as long you don't use to big a display
>>>>>>>>> size.
>>>>>>>>> 1920x1080 works well, even with the VectorGrahics
>>>>>>>>> package
>>>>>>>>> (as long you use the plugin).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> With one 3840x2160 monitor (or TV) you can watch it
>>>>>>>>> drawing
>>>>>>>>> windows on X11. The Linux frame-buffer driver
>>>>>>>>> (thanks again Ken)
>>>>>>>>> seems to be a bit faster. AFIK X11 uses the
>>>>>>>>> frame-buffer on Raspbian,
>>>>>>>>> therefore it's no surprise that another layer of
>>>>>>>>> indirection
>>>>>>>>> just makes it slower.
>>>>>>>>> It gives you this nice vintage feeling
>>>>>>>>> described here:
>>>>>>>>> www.righto.com/2017/10/the-...
>>>>>>>>> [https://www.righto.com/2017/10/the-xerox-alto-smalltalk-and-rewriting.html]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 'the team described performance as between
>>>>>>>>> "majestic" and "glacial"'
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I also tried two 3840x2160 in portrait mode.
>>>>>>>>> Graphics performance is somewhere between glacial
>>>>>>>>> and tectonic, but -- hey -- it works.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> All of this was done with 64-bit kernel
>>>>>>>>> and a 32bit user-space.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I presume all if this would be much faster,
>>>>>>>>> if the VM used OpenVG
>>>>>>>>> (www.khronos.org/files/openv...
>>>>>>>>> [http://www.khronos.org/files/openvg-quick-reference-card.pdf])
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just my 0.01€,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gerald
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2021, 2:52 PM, Phil B via Cuis-dev
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Joseph,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Smalltalk in general will feel a bit laggy vs
>>>>>>>>>>> most other environments just given the nature of
>>>>>>>>>>> how the VM works and how the image processes
>>>>>>>>>>> input. (i.e. it's very indirect) Cuis input
>>>>>>>>>>> handling does not feel as fluid to me as a
>>>>>>>>>>> Squeak image. This is one area I suspect Squeak
>>>>>>>>>>> has put a bit more effort into than we have to
>>>>>>>>>>> date. I feel it even on relatively snappy
>>>>>>>>>>> multi-GHz, multi-core machines and it does start
>>>>>>>>>>> to get painful on single-core 1GHz ARM boards if
>>>>>>>>>>> you do much beyond just typing.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2021 at 2:39 PM Joseph Turco via
>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev <cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am running it on a Core 2 duo vpro (64 bit)
>>>>>>>>>>>> with 2GB of ram. I am planning on upgrading
>>>>>>>>>>>> the ram and swapping out the HDD with a SSD or
>>>>>>>>>>>> another mechanical drive. I'm using the squeak
>>>>>>>>>>>> VM that is listed in the install instructions,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and I've also used the one that's built into
>>>>>>>>>>>> the "Cuis university" package. I moved the
>>>>>>>>>>>> wireless keyboard receiver to the front of my
>>>>>>>>>>>> computer and it helped. But I get slight
>>>>>>>>>>>> hiccups with input very rarely now. I never
>>>>>>>>>>>> got it in official squeak packages (v5.3). It
>>>>>>>>>>>> might be my computer as its aged as you can
>>>>>>>>>>>> tell from what processor family I am quoting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2021, 12:35 PM, Juan Vuletich <
>>>>>>>>>>>> juan at jvuletich.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis should run reasonably well on anything
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with at least 1GHz and 2GB. What CPU are you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> using ? How much RAM? What VM? Is that a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 32bit or 64bit OS? Do you feel keyboard
>>>>>>>>>>>>> input lag on Squeak too? Other apps? Do you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> see mouse lag too?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/15/2021 11:00 AM, Joseph Turco via
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Juan I had another question for you or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone really. On my desktop (she's a bit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> old) I'm getting some input lag. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distro I'm using is AntiX, and doesn't use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> system.d. is this a problem for Cuis?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 14, 2021, 2:34 PM, Juan Vuletich
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> via Cuis-dev < cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Joseph,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/14/2021 3:24 PM, Joseph Turco via
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hope I am not bothering anyone with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this question(s), I am a new
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> smalltalker and programmer. I decided
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to use Cuis because its more in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> line with smalltalk-80, where its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> easier to find beginner (beginner in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the programming sense) books.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Welcome to Smalltalk and Cuis!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am currently reading 'smalltalk,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> objects, and design, by Chamond
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Liu. Is this a good book? I know the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'blue book' exists, but it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assumes you can already program.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it is a very good book. But also
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keep in mind we wrote a book
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specifically for newcomers to Cuis!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/T...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/TheCuisBook]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is also a good amount of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> documentation in the Documentation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> folder
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in Cuis, in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/L...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/Learning-Cuis]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/L...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/Learning-Cuis]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My second question was the resolution
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the VM. I noticed VS squeak
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the windows were much smaller (higher
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> resolution screen layout) than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis, this really isn't a problem,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more so, did I not configure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something correctly? Please excuse my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ignorance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Joseph
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Both in Squeak and in Cuis you can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evaluate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Display extent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get the size of the Display as seen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Smalltalk. It is best if this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matches the physical screen resolution
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (although that is not the default
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on MacBooks). In any case, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> difference you see is because in Cuis
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> default fonts are larger than Squeak's.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is configurable in Cuis.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Play a bit with the World menu.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Juan Vuletich
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.cuis-smalltalk.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [http://www.cuis-smalltalk.org]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/C...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/Cuis-Smalltalk-Dev]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> github.com/jvuletich
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [https://github.com/jvuletich]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.linkedin.com/in/juan-vu...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [https://www.linkedin.com/in/juan-vuletich-75611b3]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> @JuanVuletich
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lists.cuis.st/mailman/listi...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [https://lists.cuis.st/mailman/listinfo/cuis-dev]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Juan Vuletich
>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.cuis-smalltalk.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [http://www.cuis-smalltalk.org]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/C...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/Cuis-Smalltalk-Dev]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> github.com/jvuletich
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [https://github.com/jvuletich]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.linkedin.com/in/juan-vu...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [https://www.linkedin.com/in/juan-vuletich-75611b3]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> @JuanVuletich
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st
>>>>>>>>>>>>> lists.cuis.st/mailman/listi...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [https://lists.cuis.st/mailman/listinfo/cuis-dev]
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st
>>>>>>>>> lists.cuis.st/mailman/listi...
>>>>>>>>> [https://lists.cuis.st/mailman/listinfo/cuis-dev]
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