[Cuis-dev] Converting Tonel packages

[David T. Lewis]

Thierry,

I am a casual user of various git tools in Cuis, Squeak and Pharo,
and your explanation is very helpful for me to understand some of
the tradeoffs.

Thanks,
Dave


On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 12:52:56PM +0200, Thierry Goubier via Cuis-dev wrote:
> Hi Philip,
> 
> as someone who has worked a bit on filetree, I'd say there are no
> philosophical differences. Just implementation compromises with the way
> Smalltalk has to deal with the world outside of the image for storing code.
> 
> For example, Tonel has been introduced to solve issues with filetree: the
> fact filetree generates too many files creating performance issues with the
> host filesystem implementation (and issues with the poor support of Windows
> long paths in the virtual machines), and losing space because the files are
> small (and that current storage tech has solved its performance issues with
> large files by forcing a large minimum allocation size). Filetree is itself
> a compromise to have a different fit with current version management
> systems (git, for example). As I said, just implementation compromises(*),
> no philosophy behind that.
> 
> If there is a philosophical difference, I would say that there is only one:
> declarative or imperative storage format. Traditiional Smalltalk is
> imperative... you don't load code, you execute a program. Newer formats
> like filetree or tonel, or probably the database-oriented ones (VW, Magma)
> are more declarative in nature (but have still imperative parts).
> 
> The picture grows more complex if you consider what are version control
> systems. They are in fact databases (even git), so a more natural fit for
> Smalltalk would be an object persistency layer used with code objects (VW,
> again. Gemstone?).
> 
> To give you an idea of how that looks, for all formats:
> 
> In Smalltalk, you have code as an object graph (class, CompiledMethod
> instances, etc...) with an optimisation to store the text (the sources and
> changes files). When you save, you iterate over that object graph and
> convert it to a file / multiple files. Then you interact with your version
> control system to record the files (either automatically or manually). Then
> your version control system store your changes into a database, as a set of
> objects...
> 
> This also explains why you have those Smalltalk to database for storing
> code implementations: avoid that file layer that is extremely annoying.
> 
> Thierry
> 
> (*) For example, the last version of GitFileTree, a git-enabled filetree,
> never manipulates any files in Smalltalk. Git does file operations but only
> as a kind of user interface layer, to allow users to solve conflicts.
> 
> Le jeu. 29 ao??t 2019 ?? 10:26, Philip Bernhart via Cuis-dev <
> cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st> a ??crit :
> 
> > Hi Hernan,
> >
> > could you find out the philosophical differences regarding
> > the "new" package formats like filetree or tonel?
> >
> > If yes, what are they? I'm curious why thinks are supposed to
> > be better the way pharo and visual works (?) went.
> >
> >
> > Thanks for your time,
> > Philip
> >
> > Hernan Wilkinson via Cuis-dev <cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st> writes:
> >
> > > well well well, even I do admire you and so on, I would not call it a
> > > date ????????
> > > (we are starting to have fun!!)
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 4:44 PM Dale Henrichs via Cuis-dev <
> > > cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hernan,
> > >>
> > >> Excellent! It's a date then:)
> > >>
> > >> Dale
> > >> On 7/31/19 12:32 PM, Hernan Wilkinson via Cuis-dev wrote:
> > --
> > Cuis-dev mailing list
> > Cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st
> > https://lists.cuis.st/mailman/listinfo/cuis-dev
> >

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