[Cuis-dev] Converting Tonel packages

[Chris Muller]

On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 5:41 PM David T. Lewis via Cuis-dev <
cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st> wrote:

> Thierry,
>
> I am a casual user of various git tools in Cuis, Squeak and Pharo,
> and your explanation is very helpful for me to understand some of
> the tradeoffs.
>

+1 me too.    :)



>
> Thanks,
> Dave
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 12:52:56PM +0200, Thierry Goubier via Cuis-dev
> wrote:
> > Hi Philip,
> >
> > as someone who has worked a bit on filetree, I'd say there are no
> > philosophical differences. Just implementation compromises with the way
> > Smalltalk has to deal with the world outside of the image for storing
> code.
> >
> > For example, Tonel has been introduced to solve issues with filetree: the
> > fact filetree generates too many files creating performance issues with
> the
> > host filesystem implementation (and issues with the poor support of
> Windows
> > long paths in the virtual machines), and losing space because the files
> are
> > small (and that current storage tech has solved its performance issues
> with
> > large files by forcing a large minimum allocation size). Filetree is
> itself
> > a compromise to have a different fit with current version management
> > systems (git, for example). As I said, just implementation
> compromises(*),
> > no philosophy behind that.
> >
> > If there is a philosophical difference, I would say that there is only
> one:
> > declarative or imperative storage format. Traditiional Smalltalk is
> > imperative... you don't load code, you execute a program. Newer formats
> > like filetree or tonel, or probably the database-oriented ones (VW,
> Magma)
> > are more declarative in nature (but have still imperative parts).
> >
> > The picture grows more complex if you consider what are version control
> > systems. They are in fact databases (even git), so a more natural fit for
> > Smalltalk would be an object persistency layer used with code objects
> (VW,
> > again. Gemstone?).
> >
> > To give you an idea of how that looks, for all formats:
> >
> > In Smalltalk, you have code as an object graph (class, CompiledMethod
> > instances, etc...) with an optimisation to store the text (the sources
> and
> > changes files). When you save, you iterate over that object graph and
> > convert it to a file / multiple files. Then you interact with your
> version
> > control system to record the files (either automatically or manually).
> Then
> > your version control system store your changes into a database, as a set
> of
> > objects...
> >
> > This also explains why you have those Smalltalk to database for storing
> > code implementations: avoid that file layer that is extremely annoying.
> >
> > Thierry
> >
> > (*) For example, the last version of GitFileTree, a git-enabled filetree,
> > never manipulates any files in Smalltalk. Git does file operations but
> only
> > as a kind of user interface layer, to allow users to solve conflicts.
> >
> > Le jeu. 29 ao??t 2019 ?? 10:26, Philip Bernhart via Cuis-dev <
> > cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st> a ??crit :
> >
> > > Hi Hernan,
> > >
> > > could you find out the philosophical differences regarding
> > > the "new" package formats like filetree or tonel?
> > >
> > > If yes, what are they? I'm curious why thinks are supposed to
> > > be better the way pharo and visual works (?) went.
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks for your time,
> > > Philip
> > >
> > > Hernan Wilkinson via Cuis-dev <cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st> writes:
> > >
> > > > well well well, even I do admire you and so on, I would not call it a
> > > > date ????????
> > > > (we are starting to have fun!!)
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 4:44 PM Dale Henrichs via Cuis-dev <
> > > > cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Hernan,
> > > >>
> > > >> Excellent! It's a date then:)
> > > >>
> > > >> Dale
> > > >> On 7/31/19 12:32 PM, Hernan Wilkinson via Cuis-dev wrote:
> > > --
> > > Cuis-dev mailing list
> > > Cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st
> > > https://lists.cuis.st/mailman/listinfo/cuis-dev
> > >
>
> > --
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