[Cuis-dev] Hello, new Cuis smalltalk user here!
Bruce O'Neel
bruce.oneel at pckswarms.ch
Tue Jul 20 01:14:02 PDT 2021
Hi,
Is this the error you see?
$ squeak Cuis5.0-4567
This interpreter (vers. 6521) cannot read image file (vers. 68021).
Press CR to quit...
$ squeak Cuis5.0-4567-32
This interpreter (vers. 6521) cannot read image file (vers.
1869760039).
Press CR to quit...
$ ../local/squeak/squeak Cuis5.0-4567-32
This interpreter (vers. 6521) cannot read image file (vers.
1869760039).
Press CR to quit...
The error
This interpreter (vers. 6521) cannot read image file (vers. 68021).
is expected. 32 bit VMs can't read 64 bit Images.
The error
This interpreter (vers. 6521) cannot read image file (vers.
1869760039).
shows something is wrong. I *think* the 32 bit image Cuis5.0-4567-32
is corrupt because
the newest image off of github opens.
$ squeak Cuis5.0-4619-32
works.
cheers
bruce
On 2021-07-19T22:37:46.000+02:00, Joseph Turco
<jturk90 at protonmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks. Got it installed and its complaining the Cuis University
> image is not the same version as the squeak VM installed.
>
> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> On Jul 19, 2021, 3:14 PM, Bruce O'Neel < bruce.oneel at pckswarms.ch>
> wrote:
>
>> Yep, that one is broken.
>>
>> You are on a Raspberry PI, right? It turns out that the PI
>> foundation ships an up to date Squeak VM for ARM32.
>>
>> $ sudo apt search squeak-vm
>>
>> Sorting... Done
>>
>> Full Text Search... Done
>>
>> squeak-vm/stable,now 1:4.10.2.2614-8 armhf [installed,automatic]
>>
>> virtual machine for Smalltalk
>>
>> On my install it was automatically installed.
>>
>> which squeak
>>
>> /usr/bin/squeak
>>
>> That is a working one.
>>
>> If that doesn't work for you I can build one and put it somewhere.
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> bruce
>>
>> On 2021-07-19T21:03:31.000+02:00, Joseph Turco
>> <jturk90 at protonmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm/releases/download/202003021730/squeak.cog.spur_linux32ARMv6_202003021730.tar.gz
>>>
>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> On Jul 19, 2021, 2:37 PM, Bruce O'Neel <
>>> bruce.oneel at pckswarms.ch> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Which VM exactly did you download?
>>>>
>>>> cheers
>>>>
>>>> bruce
>>>>
>>>> On 2021-07-19T19:59:27.000+02:00, Joseph Turco
>>>> <jturk90 at protonmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hey Bruce. Sorry to bother you.
>>>>>
>>>>> I decided to try getting squeak cog spur to load. But im
>>>>> getting a segmentation fault. I've tried multiple versions
>>>>> of the VM and no luck. Run into this issue?
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>>>
>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>> On Jul 19, 2021, 7:37 AM, Bruce O'Neel via Cuis-dev <
>>>>> cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just out of interest the Cog interpreter rather than the
>>>>>> stack one? The Cog one is a JIT and much faster.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> squeak -version
>>>>>>
>>>>>> will tell you this. Send it to me if it is unclear.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> cheers
>>>>>>
>>>>>> bruce
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2021-07-19T13:32:20.000+02:00, Joseph Turco
>>>>>> <jturk90 at protonmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yeah see I think that's my problem. Its a RPI zero w.
>>>>>>> 512mb ram and a single core 1ghz processor. I guess it
>>>>>>> needs a RPI 3b+ and faster. Oh well I guess its
>>>>>>> smalltalk-80 for now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>> On Jul 19, 2021, 7:29 AM, Bruce O'Neel <
>>>>>>> bruce.oneel at pckswarms.ch> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I run Squeak, so same VM but not the same Image, on
>>>>>>>> both a PI3B+ and a PI400. Both don't give the
>>>>>>>> impression of being laggy, but.... I am running them
>>>>>>>> using X11 remote displays. So therefore my "boy this
>>>>>>>> is slow" reaction will be absorbed by "network seems
>>>>>>>> slow."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I know others who use Squeak on PI4s and seem happy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> cheers
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> bruce
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2021-07-19T13:23:11.000+02:00, Joseph Turco
>>>>>>>> <jturk90 at protonmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Its funny you bring up arm Bruce,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I tried to get Cuis to run on my raspberry pi zero W
>>>>>>>>> as my PC is having some major issues (its over 10
>>>>>>>>> years old) and I wasn't surprised, but it was very
>>>>>>>>> slow and laggy. I'm assuming the CPU isn't enough
>>>>>>>>> for it. You have ideas on how I could optimize it? I
>>>>>>>>> may end up having to use the c++ original
>>>>>>>>> smalltalk-80 baremetal that came out recently...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>>>> On Jul 19, 2021, 7:08 AM, Bruce O'Neel <
>>>>>>>>> bruce.oneel at pckswarms.ch> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In terms of 64 bit ARM....
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> RPF (Raspberry PI Foundation) recently donated
>>>>>>>>>> optimized bitblt for ARM64 [1] like they had done
>>>>>>>>>> in the past for ARM32. This is not in a current
>>>>>>>>>> VM for long and not very interesting reasons but
>>>>>>>>>> soonish they will be.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If I remember I'll send a note around when ARM64
>>>>>>>>>> should speed up on the graphics side.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> cheers
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> bruce
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> [1]. - Squeak - Dev - BitBlt performance work
>>>>>>>>>> for ARM32 & 64
>>>>>>>>>> [http://forum.world.st/BitBlt-performance-work-for-ARM32-amp-64-td5128015.html]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 2021-07-17T10:20:55.000+02:00, Gerald Klix via
>>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev <cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Joseph,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> see below.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/17/21 12:23 AM, Joseph Turco via Cuis-dev wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ah OK got it. For the record I wasn't
>>>>>>>>>>>> downplaying or hating Cuis. I really enjoy
>>>>>>>>>>>> using it. Speaking of ARM, it would be
>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting to see how it runs on a raspberry
>>>>>>>>>>>> pi4 4 or 8GB model.
>>>>>>>>>>> It's ok as long you don't use to big a display
>>>>>>>>>>> size.
>>>>>>>>>>> 1920x1080 works well, even with the
>>>>>>>>>>> VectorGrahics package
>>>>>>>>>>> (as long you use the plugin).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> With one 3840x2160 monitor (or TV) you can watch
>>>>>>>>>>> it drawing
>>>>>>>>>>> windows on X11. The Linux frame-buffer driver
>>>>>>>>>>> (thanks again Ken)
>>>>>>>>>>> seems to be a bit faster. AFIK X11 uses the
>>>>>>>>>>> frame-buffer on Raspbian,
>>>>>>>>>>> therefore it's no surprise that another layer of
>>>>>>>>>>> indirection
>>>>>>>>>>> just makes it slower.
>>>>>>>>>>> It gives you this nice vintage feeling
>>>>>>>>>>> described here:
>>>>>>>>>>> www.righto.com/2017/10/the-...
>>>>>>>>>>> [https://www.righto.com/2017/10/the-xerox-alto-smalltalk-and-rewriting.html]
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 'the team described performance as between
>>>>>>>>>>> "majestic" and "glacial"'
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I also tried two 3840x2160 in portrait mode.
>>>>>>>>>>> Graphics performance is somewhere between
>>>>>>>>>>> glacial
>>>>>>>>>>> and tectonic, but -- hey -- it works.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> All of this was done with 64-bit kernel
>>>>>>>>>>> and a 32bit user-space.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I presume all if this would be much faster,
>>>>>>>>>>> if the VM used OpenVG
>>>>>>>>>>> (www.khronos.org/files/openv...
>>>>>>>>>>> [http://www.khronos.org/files/openvg-quick-reference-card.pdf])
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Just my 0.01€,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Gerald
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2021, 2:52 PM, Phil B via Cuis-dev
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Joseph,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Smalltalk in general will feel a bit laggy
>>>>>>>>>>>>> vs most other environments just given the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nature of how the VM works and how the image
>>>>>>>>>>>>> processes input. (i.e. it's very indirect)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis input handling does not feel as fluid
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to me as a Squeak image. This is one area I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> suspect Squeak has put a bit more effort
>>>>>>>>>>>>> into than we have to date. I feel it even on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> relatively snappy multi-GHz, multi-core
>>>>>>>>>>>>> machines and it does start to get painful on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> single-core 1GHz ARM boards if you do much
>>>>>>>>>>>>> beyond just typing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2021 at 2:39 PM Joseph Turco
>>>>>>>>>>>>> via Cuis-dev <cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am running it on a Core 2 duo vpro (64
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bit) with 2GB of ram. I am planning on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> upgrading the ram and swapping out the HDD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with a SSD or another mechanical drive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm using the squeak VM that is listed in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the install instructions, and I've also
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> used the one that's built into the "Cuis
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> university" package. I moved the wireless
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keyboard receiver to the front of my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> computer and it helped. But I get slight
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hiccups with input very rarely now. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> never got it in official squeak packages
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (v5.3). It might be my computer as its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aged as you can tell from what processor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> family I am quoting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2021, 12:35 PM, Juan Vuletich <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> juan at jvuletich.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis should run reasonably well on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything with at least 1GHz and 2GB.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What CPU are you using ? How much RAM?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What VM? Is that a 32bit or 64bit OS? Do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you feel keyboard input lag on Squeak
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> too? Other apps? Do you see mouse lag
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> too?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/15/2021 11:00 AM, Joseph Turco via
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Juan I had another question for you or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone really. On my desktop (she's a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bit old) I'm getting some input lag.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The distro I'm using is AntiX, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't use system.d. is this a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem for Cuis?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 14, 2021, 2:34 PM, Juan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vuletich via Cuis-dev <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Joseph,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/14/2021 3:24 PM, Joseph Turco
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> via Cuis-dev wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hope I am not bothering anyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with this question(s), I am a new
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> smalltalker and programmer. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decided to use Cuis because its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> line with smalltalk-80, where its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> easier to find beginner (beginner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the programming sense) books.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Welcome to Smalltalk and Cuis!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am currently reading 'smalltalk,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> objects, and design, by Chamond
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Liu. Is this a good book? I know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 'blue book' exists, but it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assumes you can already program.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it is a very good book. But
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also keep in mind we wrote a book
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specifically for newcomers to Cuis!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/T...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/TheCuisBook]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is also a good amount of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> documentation in the Documentation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> folder
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in Cuis, in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/L...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/Learning-Cuis]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/L...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/Learning-Cuis]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My second question was the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> resolution of the VM. I noticed VS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> squeak
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the windows were much smaller
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (higher resolution screen layout)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis, this really isn't a problem,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more so, did I not configure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something correctly? Please excuse
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my ignorance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Joseph
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Both in Squeak and in Cuis you can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evaluate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Display extent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get the size of the Display as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seen by Smalltalk. It is best if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matches the physical screen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> resolution (although that is not the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> default
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on MacBooks). In any case, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> difference you see is because in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> default fonts are larger than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Squeak's. This is configurable in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Play a bit with the World menu.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Juan Vuletich
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.cuis-smalltalk.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [http://www.cuis-smalltalk.org]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/C...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/Cuis-Smalltalk-Dev]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> github.com/jvuletich
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [https://github.com/jvuletich]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.linkedin.com/in/juan-vu...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [https://www.linkedin.com/in/juan-vuletich-75611b3]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> @JuanVuletich
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lists.cuis.st/mailman/listi...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [https://lists.cuis.st/mailman/listinfo/cuis-dev]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Juan Vuletich
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.cuis-smalltalk.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [http://www.cuis-smalltalk.org]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/C...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/Cuis-Smalltalk-Dev]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> github.com/jvuletich
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [https://github.com/jvuletich]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.linkedin.com/in/juan-vu...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [https://www.linkedin.com/in/juan-vuletich-75611b3]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> @JuanVuletich
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lists.cuis.st/mailman/listi...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [https://lists.cuis.st/mailman/listinfo/cuis-dev]
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st
>>>>>>>>>>> lists.cuis.st/mailman/listi...
>>>>>>>>>>> [https://lists.cuis.st/mailman/listinfo/cuis-dev]
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