[Cuis-dev] Hello, new Cuis smalltalk user here!
Joseph Turco
jturk90 at protonmail.com
Mon Jul 19 05:55:13 PDT 2021
No worries! Since I don't have a computer anymore I'll most likely end up buying a RPI to run Cuis smalltalk. I'm not in a current situation to buy anything right now so as I said I'll be using the C++ smalltalk-80 bare metal on my RPI zero W for now.
Sent from ProtonMail mobile
-------- Original Message --------
On Jul 19, 2021, 8:52 AM, Nicola Mingotti wrote:
> Ops, probably I raised the ARM thing suggesting to run in BeagleBone or RPi.
>
> I still never run Cuis there. I just supposed it should work, excuse me.
>
> I think i run Squeak there some time ago, but i can't be sure 100%.
>
> bye
> n.
>
> On 7/19/21 1:40 PM, Joseph Turco via Cuis-dev wrote:
>
>> Its the cog version, not stack. By lag btw I mean dragging windows are choppy. Typing is not as real time as it should me. Its the latest version on the opensmalltalk git
>>
>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> On Jul 19, 2021, 7:37 AM, Bruce O'Neel < bruce.oneel at pckswarms.ch> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Just out of interest the Cog interpreter rather than the stack one? The Cog one is a JIT and much faster.
>>>
>>> squeak -version
>>>
>>> will tell you this. Send it to me if it is unclear.
>>>
>>> cheers
>>>
>>> bruce
>>>
>>> On 2021-07-19T13:32:20.000+02:00, Joseph Turco [<jturk90 at protonmail.com>](mailto:jturk90 at protonmail.com) wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yeah see I think that's my problem. Its a RPI zero w. 512mb ram and a single core 1ghz processor. I guess it needs a RPI 3b+ and faster. Oh well I guess its smalltalk-80 for now.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> On Jul 19, 2021, 7:29 AM, Bruce O'Neel < bruce.oneel at pckswarms.ch> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> I run Squeak, so same VM but not the same Image, on both a PI3B+ and a PI400. Both don't give the impression of being laggy, but.... I am running them using X11 remote displays. So therefore my "boy this is slow" reaction will be absorbed by "network seems slow."
>>>>>
>>>>> I know others who use Squeak on PI4s and seem happy.
>>>>>
>>>>> cheers
>>>>>
>>>>> bruce
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2021-07-19T13:23:11.000+02:00, Joseph Turco <jturk90 at protonmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Its funny you bring up arm Bruce,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I tried to get Cuis to run on my raspberry pi zero W as my PC is having some major issues (its over 10 years old) and I wasn't surprised, but it was very slow and laggy. I'm assuming the CPU isn't enough for it. You have ideas on how I could optimize it? I may end up having to use the c++ original smalltalk-80 baremetal that came out recently...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>> On Jul 19, 2021, 7:08 AM, Bruce O'Neel < bruce.oneel at pckswarms.ch> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In terms of 64 bit ARM....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> RPF (Raspberry PI Foundation) recently donated optimized bitblt for ARM64 [1] like they had done in the past for ARM32. This is not in a current VM for long and not very interesting reasons but soonish they will be.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I remember I'll send a note around when ARM64 should speed up on the graphics side.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> cheers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> bruce
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [1]. - [Squeak - Dev - BitBlt performance work for ARM32 & 64](http://forum.world.st/BitBlt-performance-work-for-ARM32-amp-64-td5128015.html)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2021-07-17T10:20:55.000+02:00, Gerald Klix via Cuis-dev <cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Joseph,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> see below.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 7/17/21 12:23 AM, Joseph Turco via Cuis-dev
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ah OK got it. For the record I wasn't
>>>>>>>>> downplaying or hating Cuis. I really enjoy
>>>>>>>>> using it. Speaking of ARM, it would be
>>>>>>>>> interesting to see how it runs on a
>>>>>>>>> raspberry pi4 4 or 8GB model.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's ok as long you don't use to big a display
>>>>>>>> size.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1920x1080 works well, even with the
>>>>>>>> VectorGrahics package
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (as long you use the plugin).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> With one 3840x2160 monitor (or TV) you can
>>>>>>>> watch it drawing
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> windows on X11. The Linux frame-buffer driver
>>>>>>>> (thanks again Ken)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> seems to be a bit faster. AFIK X11 uses the
>>>>>>>> frame-buffer on Raspbian,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> therefore it's no surprise that another layer
>>>>>>>> of indirection
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> just makes it slower.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It gives you this nice vintage feeling
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> described here:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [www.righto.com/2017/10/the-...](https://www.righto.com/2017/10/the-xerox-alto-smalltalk-and-rewriting.html)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 'the team described performance as between
>>>>>>>> "majestic" and "glacial"'
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I also tried two 3840x2160 in portrait mode.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Graphics performance is somewhere between
>>>>>>>> glacial
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and tectonic, but -- hey -- it works.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All of this was done with 64-bit kernel
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and a 32bit user-space.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I presume all if this would be much faster,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> if the VM used OpenVG
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (
>>>>>>>> [www.khronos.org/files/openv...](http://www.khronos.org/files/openvg-quick-reference-card.pdf)
>>>>>>>> )
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just my 0.01€,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gerald
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2021, 2:52 PM, Phil B via
>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Joseph,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Smalltalk in general will feel a bit laggy
>>>>>>>>>> vs most other environments just given the
>>>>>>>>>> nature of how the VM works and how the
>>>>>>>>>> image processes input. (i.e. it's very
>>>>>>>>>> indirect) Cuis input handling does not
>>>>>>>>>> feel as fluid to me as a Squeak image.
>>>>>>>>>> This is one area I suspect Squeak has put
>>>>>>>>>> a bit more effort into than we have to
>>>>>>>>>> date. I feel it even on relatively snappy
>>>>>>>>>> multi-GHz, multi-core machines and it does
>>>>>>>>>> start to get painful on single-core 1GHz
>>>>>>>>>> ARM boards if you do much beyond just
>>>>>>>>>> typing.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2021 at 2:39 PM Joseph
>>>>>>>>>> Turco via Cuis-dev <
>>>>>>>>>> cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I am running it on a Core 2 duo vpro (64
>>>>>>>>>>> bit) with 2GB of ram. I am planning on
>>>>>>>>>>> upgrading the ram and swapping out the
>>>>>>>>>>> HDD with a SSD or another mechanical
>>>>>>>>>>> drive. I'm using the squeak VM that is
>>>>>>>>>>> listed in the install instructions, and
>>>>>>>>>>> I've also used the one that's built into
>>>>>>>>>>> the "Cuis university" package. I moved
>>>>>>>>>>> the wireless keyboard receiver to the
>>>>>>>>>>> front of my computer and it helped. But
>>>>>>>>>>> I get slight hiccups with input very
>>>>>>>>>>> rarely now. I never got it in official
>>>>>>>>>>> squeak packages (v5.3). It might be my
>>>>>>>>>>> computer as its aged as you can tell
>>>>>>>>>>> from what processor family I am quoting.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 16, 2021, 12:35 PM, Juan Vuletich
>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>>>> juan at jvuletich.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis should run reasonably well on
>>>>>>>>>>>> anything with at least 1GHz and 2GB.
>>>>>>>>>>>> What CPU are you using ? How much RAM?
>>>>>>>>>>>> What VM? Is that a 32bit or 64bit OS?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you feel keyboard input lag on
>>>>>>>>>>>> Squeak too? Other apps? Do you see
>>>>>>>>>>>> mouse lag too?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/15/2021 11:00 AM, Joseph Turco
>>>>>>>>>>>> via Cuis-dev wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Juan I had another question for you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or anyone really. On my desktop
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (she's a bit old) I'm getting some
>>>>>>>>>>>>> input lag. The distro I'm using is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> AntiX, and doesn't use system.d. is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this a problem for Cuis?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from ProtonMail mobile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 14, 2021, 2:34 PM, Juan
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vuletich via Cuis-dev <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Joseph,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/14/2021 3:24 PM, Joseph Turco
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> via Cuis-dev wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hope I am not bothering anyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with this question(s), I am a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> new
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> smalltalker and programmer. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decided to use Cuis because its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> line with smalltalk-80, where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its easier to find beginner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (beginner in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the programming sense) books.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Welcome to Smalltalk and Cuis!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am currently reading
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'smalltalk, objects, and design,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Chamond
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Liu. Is this a good book? I know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 'blue book' exists, but it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assumes you can already program.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it is a very good book. But
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also keep in mind we wrote a book
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specifically for newcomers to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/T...](https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/TheCuisBook)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is also a good amount of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> documentation in the Documentation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> folder
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in Cuis, in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/L...](https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/Learning-Cuis)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/L...](https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/Learning-Cuis)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My second question was the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> resolution of the VM. I noticed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> VS squeak
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the windows were much smaller
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (higher resolution screen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> layout) than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis, this really isn't a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem, more so, did I not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> configure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something correctly? Please
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> excuse my ignorance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Joseph
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Both in Squeak and in Cuis you can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evaluate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Display extent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get the size of the Display as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seen by Smalltalk. It is best if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matches the physical screen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> resolution (although that is not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the default
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on MacBooks). In any case, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> difference you see is because in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> default fonts are larger than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Squeak's. This is configurable in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Play a bit with the World menu.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Juan Vuletich
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.cuis-smalltalk.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/C...](https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/Cuis-Smalltalk-Dev)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> github.com/jvuletich
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [www.linkedin.com/in/juan-vu...](https://www.linkedin.com/in/juan-vuletich-75611b3)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> @JuanVuletich
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [lists.cuis.st/mailman/listi...](https://lists.cuis.st/mailman/listinfo/cuis-dev)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Juan Vuletich
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> www.cuis-smalltalk.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> [github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/C...](https://github.com/Cuis-Smalltalk/Cuis-Smalltalk-Dev)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> github.com/jvuletich
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> [www.linkedin.com/in/juan-vu...](https://www.linkedin.com/in/juan-vuletich-75611b3)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> @JuanVuletich
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> [lists.cuis.st/mailman/listi...](https://lists.cuis.st/mailman/listinfo/cuis-dev)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cuis-dev at lists.cuis.st
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [lists.cuis.st/mailman/listi...](https://lists.cuis.st/mailman/listinfo/cuis-dev)
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